raymond frantz

Joined

• started 224 topics
• posted 1,083 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by raymond frantz

• 
  23

  3 Changes The Watchtower Made on Babylon The Great in the Last 6 Months

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/vpws6ncqpla?si=dqnf7-hupfr4pdta.

  for decades, jehovah’s witnesses have been banging on about babylon the great—the so-called world empire of false religion—being on the brink of collapse.

  any day now, they assured us, churches would empty out, priests would be left twiddling their thumbs, and humanity would collectively bin organised religion.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  It sure looks like Babylon the Great will become a thing when all major religions will have to explain soon in a unified way the Arrival of the fallen ones
• 
  24

  WT June 2025: We Are Not Blind We Just Don't Know

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/7xumqjq3zfc?si=ivcg96t4dtgze4ft.

  so this is from the brand new watchtower study edition of june 2025 which has just been posted on jw.org .under the title: modestly accept what you do not know, a let’s read paragraphs in question 4 &5: “read matthew 24:36. we do not know when the end of this system of things will come.

  even jesus, while on earth, did not know the ‘day and hour.’ he later told the apostles that jehovah, who is the great timekeeper, keeps the timing of certain events ‘in his own jurisdiction,’ or authority.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  https://youtu.be/7XUMqjQ3ZFc?si=ivCG96T4dTgZE4Ft

  So this is from the brand new
  Watchtower Study Edition of June 2025 which has just been posted on jw.org .under the title:
  Modestly Accept What You Do Not Know, a
  Let’s read paragraphs in question 4 &5: “Read Matthew 24:36. We do not know when the end of this system of things will come. Even Jesus, while on earth, did not know the ‘day and hour.’ He later told the apostles that Jehovah, who is the Great Timekeeper, keeps the timing of certain events ‘in his own jurisdiction,’ or authority. (Acts 1:6, 7) Jehovah has scheduled the time for the end of this system, but we are not in a position to figure out precisely when that will be.”
  “Because we do not know when the end will come, how might we be affected? In view of what Jesus said, we do not know how long we will have to wait until the end comes. As a result, we might become impatient or discouraged, especially if we have already been waiting for some time for Jehovah’s day. Or we might find it hard to endure ridicule from family members or others. (2 Pet. 3:3, 4) It is possible to feel that if we knew the exact day that the end would come, we would be more patient and we would be able to endure ridicule more easily.”

  It is similar to a divine answering machine. “Thank you for your interest in the end of the world. Jehovah is currently unavailable. Timing is in His own jurisdiction. Please remain faithful and try your call again later.”
  Let’s take a moment to appreciate the poetic irony here. We’re now being told—*again*—that **Jehovah is the Great Timekeeper**, which is adorable considering this organization has spent over a century fumbling with broken clocks. From 1874 to 1914, from 1925 to 1975, from the infamous “generation that will not pass away” to whatever version we’re pretending not to remember today, their timing has been… let’s say, *creatively inaccurate*.
  Now they’ve downgraded their forecast from “We know!” to “Nobody knows—and that’s a good thing!” How convenient. If you can’t give people an ETA, just rebrand your uncertainty as virtue.
  And yes, we’re told Jesus himself didn’t know the day or hour (**Matthew 24:36**), which apparently absolves the Governing Body from ever having to know anything specific, despite their self-appointed status as Jehovah’s exclusive channel. If they know less now than they did in 1975, are we to believe that spiritual “light” works in reverse?
  Then comes the real jewel: **“Jehovah… keeps the timing of certain events ‘in his own jurisdiction.’”** This phrase has become Watchtower code for “Don’t ask us. We haven’t got a clue.” It sounds like a divine bureaucratic office, where prophecies are stamped and filed away for later delivery—but only to the back office, not the reception desk. “Yes, Armageddon is scheduled, but it’s above your pay grade. Just keep distributing literature, please.”
  Now, imagine going to a doctor who tells you: "Well, we don’t know when the treatment will work. Or what the outcome will be. Actually, we don’t even know what stage your illness is in. But trust me—your healing is close. In the meantime, take these magazines, knock on doors, and keep showing up for appointments. Just don’t expect test results."
  That doctor would be sued for malpractice. But when the Watchtower says the same thing spiritually, it’s praised as “modesty.”
  And just to keep things emotionally manipulative, they acknowledge the psychological fallout: “We might become impatient or discouraged... we might find it hard to endure ridicule... we would be more patient if we knew the exact day...”
  You don’t say? Perhaps that’s because being in a state of chronic, unresolved spiritual suspense is not actually sustainable. People eventually tire of being told “soon” for decades while the world continues spinning and the Governing Body continues revising its timelines in spiritual white-out.
  But instead of taking responsibility for that fatigue, they turn it back on *you*. If you’re discouraged, it’s not because you’ve been fed a century of failed expectations—it’s because you don’t trust Jehovah enough. See how that works?
  Even more audacious is their implication that **knowing the exact date would somehow be too easy**. As if clarity is cheating, and uncertainty is the noble path. “If we knew when the end would come, we’d be more patient,” they say—as if that’s a problem. Isn’t that *exactly* what Jesus did for his followers in Matthew 24 and 25? Gave them signs, timelines, illustrations to prepare? But no—here, blind faith is repackaged as spiritual discipline.
  Meanwhile, we have **Matthew 15:14 (NWT)** reminding us with chilling clarity:
  > *“Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”*
  And the Governing Body wants to guide you—confidently, cheerfully, and perpetually—straight toward that pit, while proudly declaring they can’t see the path ahead. But don’t worry, they’ve got new literature for you in the meantime. You just have to believe harder.
  So what’s the takeaway here? The end is definitely coming—*eventually*. Jehovah knows when, but He’s not telling. Jesus didn’t know, so the Governing Body definitely can’t. Your discouragement is valid, but still your fault. Just keep going. Trust the Great Timekeeper… even though His alarm clock apparently runs on celestial mystery.
  Meanwhile, the Watchtower keeps resetting the countdown and handing out brochures like it's spiritual candy. All the while, millions sit in spiritual waiting rooms, hoping that someday, someone will actually call their name and say, “It’s time.”
  But spoiler alert: if the last hundred years are anything to go by, that call may not come until after the waiting room closes.
• 
  23

  3 Changes The Watchtower Made on Babylon The Great in the Last 6 Months

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/vpws6ncqpla?si=dqnf7-hupfr4pdta.

  for decades, jehovah’s witnesses have been banging on about babylon the great—the so-called world empire of false religion—being on the brink of collapse.

  any day now, they assured us, churches would empty out, priests would be left twiddling their thumbs, and humanity would collectively bin organised religion.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  https://youtu.be/VPws6nCQPLA?si=DQNf7-huPFr4PDtA

  For decades, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been banging on about Babylon the Great—the so-called world empire of false religion—being on the brink of collapse. Any day now, they assured us, churches would empty out, priests would be left twiddling their thumbs, and humanity would collectively bin organised religion. And yet… here we are. Churches are still standing, mosques and temples are packed, and religion is still thriving in large swathes of the world.

  So, what do you do when your long-anticipated prophecy isn’t quite unfolding as expected? Well, if you're the Watchtower Society, you simply tweak the narrative. Again. And again.

  At the latest annual meeting, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses unveiled yet another “adjustment” (their favourite euphemism for backtracking). This time, it’s all about Babylon the Great, and it’s a pretty big U-turn. Let’s break it down into three key changes.

  Change 1: Babylon the Great Is *Not* Actually Falling (At Least, Not Yet)

  For years, Jehovah’s Witnesses confidently declared that Babylon the Great was in a terminal decline. Europe’s churches were emptier than a pub on Christmas morning, faith was supposedly on the way out, and this was solid proof that Jehovah was dismantling false religion in preparation for the Great Tribulation.

  Except, as it turns out, religion isn’t exactly gasping its last breath worldwide. While Europe might be swapping Sunday service for Sunday brunch, Africa, South America, and large parts of Asia are still very much devoted to their faiths. Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism are still experiencing growth in many regions, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have been forced to acknowledge this inconvenient reality.

  So, rather than admit their prediction was a bit premature, they’ve decided that, actually, Babylon the Great is *gradually* losing support, but it's not quite at the collapsing stage yet. The waters, they now say, are only *drying up* rather than disappearing entirely. Ah, yes—the classic "technically, we weren’t *wrong*” manoeuvre.

  Change 2: The Great Tribulation No Longer Starts with Babylon’s Fall

  Here’s another one they’ve quietly reshuffled. For decades, Witnesses were taught that the Great Tribulation—the beginning of the end of the world—would be triggered by governments suddenly turning on religion and wiping out all false faiths. Babylon the Great would be obliterated, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, as the only true faith, would emerge untouched, finally getting their *I told you so* moment.

  Well, not anymore. According to the latest interpretation, the Great Tribulation actually starts with something quite different: nations handing over their power to the United Nations. Yes, the very same UN that Jehovah’s Witnesses have been demonising for decades as part of Satan’s world order is now, apparently, fulfilling God’s plan.

  This shift is significant. Instead of expecting an immediate, dramatic collapse of religion, Witnesses are now being told to look for political changes instead. It’s a convenient way to move the goalposts—rather than having to explain why Babylon the Great is still alive and well, they can now focus on political shifts that may or may not happen in the near future.

  Essentially, they've gone from “Religion is about to be wiped out” to “Actually, let’s keep an eye on the UN instead.” And, conveniently, this new timeline keeps the sense of urgency alive without requiring them to acknowledge that their previous predictions didn’t quite pan out.

  Change 3: A Softer Stance Towards Other Religions

  Perhaps the most surprising shift of all is the *tone* of this new understanding. Historically, Jehovah’s Witnesses have had no qualms about calling other religions part of a corrupt, satanic system destined for destruction. They proudly distanced themselves from *Christendom*, rejected interfaith cooperation, and made it clear that all other faiths were doomed.

  But now? The message is getting noticeably softer. Rather than talking about the imminent destruction of all other religions, they’re subtly shifting the focus towards political changes. Could this be a strategic move to appear more respectable and mainstream? It certainly seems that way.

  Let’s not forget that Jehovah’s Witnesses operate as registered charities in countries like the UK and Australia. If they go around gleefully predicting the downfall of every other religion, it doesn’t exactly help their reputation when governments review their charitable status. By softening their stance, they can present themselves as a peaceful, law-abiding group rather than a fringe movement obsessed with Armageddon.

  This shift could also make life easier for Witnesses in countries where they’re viewed with suspicion. France, Spain, and Norway, for instance, have taken a harder stance against what they consider to be extreme religious groups. If the Watchtower wants to maintain influence in these regions, appearing less antagonistic towards other faiths is a smart move.

  And let’s be honest—publicly rooting for the collapse of all other religions while simultaneously claiming tax-exempt charity status was always going to be a tough sell.

  The Big Picture: A Strategic Survival Move?

  So, what’s really going on here? Is this another case of “new light” (aka “Oops, we need to rethink that one”), or is there something more strategic at play?

  One thing is certain: the Watchtower is losing members. Their growth has slowed dramatically, Kingdom Halls are being sold, and internal reports suggest they’re struggling to retain young people. If you’re an organisation watching your influence wane, you have two choices: double down on the old narrative or pivot to something more sustainable.

  By shifting away from the “Babylon is about to collapse” rhetoric and focusing on the UN, they buy themselves time. If churches are still standing strong in 10 years, no problem—they can just say the political scene hasn’t quite aligned yet.

  At the same time, toning down their hostility towards other religions makes them more palatable as a charity and reduces their risk of being classified as an extremist group. It’s a classic PR move: soften the message, stay relevant, and ensure the money keeps flowing.

  Final Thought: Who’s Actually in Decline Here?

  For decades, Jehovah’s Witnesses have warned the world that religion is on the verge of collapse. But if you look at the numbers, it’s actually the *Watchtower* that seems to be in trouble. Their once-unquestioned authority is being challenged, their membership is stagnating, and now they’re having to reframe their prophecies to keep their followers engaged.

  So, maybe Babylon the Great *isn’t* the one falling after all. Maybe it’s the Watchtower. And in this religious survival game, they seem to have realised that playing nice might just be their best chance at staying afloat.

  Not quite the grand Armageddon they promised, is it?
• 
  6

  Memorial Talk Training Video 2025 - Part 1

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/4upzvonzg10?si=1bdvv6qzcuj2fo6s.

  oh, the joys of being one of jehovah’s witnesses, where you get to learn that heaven is a vip lounge for exactly 144,000 people—and sorry, everyone else, you're stuck in the “earth forever” section.

  yep, you get to mow grass in paradise while the chosen few float around in immortal glory.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  https://youtu.be/4UpZVoNZG10?si=1BdVV6qZCUj2fO6S

  Oh, the joys of being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, where you get to learn that heaven is a VIP lounge for exactly 144,000 people—and sorry, everyone else, you're stuck in the “earth forever” section. Yep, you get to mow grass in paradise while the chosen few float around in immortal glory. Sounds fair, right? Because clearly, God is running a limited-entry club in heaven, complete with a divine bouncer counting heads at the door.Let’s break this down. So, the idea is that *only* 144,000 people get to go to heaven, because Revelation mentions that number. And that’s it, apparently. Context? Who needs it. Never mind the rest of Scripture, just grab that number and build a whole theology on it. But here’s the kicker—**1 Corinthians 15:22-23** throws a big wrench into this. Paul writes: *“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.”* Wait, what? ALL who belong to Christ? Not “some,” not “just the elite 144,000,” but ALL. That’s weird, it’s almost like Paul didn’t get the memo about this exclusive heaven policy.

  But it gets better. Paul goes on in **1 Corinthians 15:50-54** to explain that *flesh and blood can’t inherit the kingdom of God* and that *all* will be changed into immortal, spiritual beings. Not “some,” not “just the early birds who filled up the 144,000 quota,” but ALL faithful believers. So if *all* are changed into immortal, spiritual beings who can’t die, get sick, or stub their toe, where exactly are these people supposed to live? Oh, that’s right—heaven. Because that’s what a spiritual, immortal body is for.

  Now, let’s talk about this *fabulous* idea of a “secondary class” who, I guess, should feel lucky just to be invited to the eternal party… but wait, they can’t come inside. They get to stand outside forever, while the 144,000 enjoy the real blessings. Because apparently, God loves playing favorites. Let’s just ignore **Romans 8:17**, which says, *“Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ.”* Co-heirs, meaning equal inheritance. Funny, it doesn’t say “heirs in two different tiers,” or “heirs, but some of you get leftovers.”

  Heaven isn’t just a nice location upgrade. It’s a different existence. In heaven, you’re immortal, untouchable by time, hunger, or the weather. You don’t have to eat, sleep, or wear clothes unless you want to. You don’t break a sweat hauling around a physical body because—guess what—you don’t have one. Now let’s compare that to the so-called “paradise on earth,” where you’re still in a physical, fragile body that needs maintenance. Yeah, you get to prune trees, avoid bee stings, and hope you don’t trip over a rock. Clearly, such a *luxury*.

  And here’s the real plot twist. The “great crowd” who allegedly stay on earth forever? Well, **Revelation 7:9** says they’re *standing before the throne of God*, which is—shocker—*in heaven*. Oops. So much for that whole “eternal earth” theory.

  Now buckle up, because **Revelation 20:6** is about to make this even more awkward: *“Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”* Wait, did that say “blessed and holy”? Reigning with Christ? Priests of God? Yeah, and that’s the *first* resurrection—*the better resurrection*. And where is Christ reigning from? Heaven, not someone’s backyard in paradise. So these people aren’t just alive—they’re ruling. They’re *with God*, not watching from Earth’s nosebleed section.

  Let’s not forget, the Bible never says there’s a resurrection to earth after Christ returns where people just chill forever in Eden 2.0. That idea had to be *massaged* into the text by people desperate to make their doctrines fit. And of course, only the special 144,000 get the first-class ticket to heaven, while the “great crowd” is supposed to smile and accept a second-rate reward. Because who doesn’t love being a second-class citizen for eternity?

  In conclusion, the whole 144,000-in-heaven and everyone-else-on-earth teaching? It’s not just wrong—it’s absurd. It’s a man-made fantasy that shrinks God’s promise and turns it into a divine caste system. The truth is simple: *all* who belong to Christ get the *better resurrection*, the one where you reign with Him in heaven—not just a chosen few with heavenly frequent flyer miles. Heaven isn’t reserved for a club of 144,000. It’s for *all* true believers. Don’t settle for less when God offers the best
• 
  16

  Will They Change the Memorial Talk This Year?

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/o5almnehew4?si=kdgrjgbiutjkvcxe.

  i’m hoping the memorial talk will be different.

  change the talk!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  Herelam I saw that yesterday on Redit,sone say that this is the same outline as the 2019 one, but I was in then I didn't hear them going on about born again.Is that a new thing?
• 
  16

  Will They Change the Memorial Talk This Year?

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/o5almnehew4?si=kdgrjgbiutjkvcxe.

  i’m hoping the memorial talk will be different.

  change the talk!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  https://youtu.be/o5almNEhew4?si=KDGrjgBiUtJkVCXe

  It’s March 2025, and that means it’s Memorial season. You know, when Jehovah’s Witnesses put on nice clothes, hand out invites, and talk about Jesus dying for us. But this year, I think something might change. I’m hoping the Memorial talk will be different. Will they mix it up, or will it be the same boring stuff?
  Now, if you’ve been watching lately—and I know some of you ex-Witnesses and curious people have—the past year has been crazy for the Watchtower. After their big meeting, the Annual Meeting, in November 2024, they messed up their own rules. The 144,000? Not special anymore. The Great Crowd? Not a big deal now. It’s like the leaders woke up one day and said, ‘Let’s throw out the two main pillars of our theology and see what happens.’ And of course it's like the old Chinese proverbial these days with this impasilic governing body, they burn down every part of their the theology because are idiots, as the proverbial says: "The stupid man will burn down his kingdom to rule over its ashes"
  "Let’s start with the 144,000. For years, this was the super important group. The chosen ones. The special people who’d go to heaven with Jesus while everyone else stayed on earth,
  Being Jesus best friends in heaven. You had to be born at the right time, like around 1914, or feel extra special to be one of them. But now? Nope. After 2024, they say, ‘Doesn’t matter when you were born. Anyone can be in the 144,000!’ It’s not rare or fancy anymore. It’s like they’re giving away heaven spots for free."
  "LAnd look at this—the new leaders in the Governing Body? They’re young! Like, born in the 1970s or 1980s young. Before, you’d expect them to be super old, talking about 1914 like it was their favorite memory. But now? The old rules don’t count. The Watchtower can't admit openly yet that they got that generation thing wrong, but they implied it with these recent changes.’ And I’m sitting here thinking, ‘Wait, all that confusing stuff about overlapping generations was pointless?’
  Then there’s the Great Crowd. Oh, poor Great Crowd. You used to be the backup team—surviving the end of the world, living forever on earth, maybe growing perfect carrots or something. But now? They made you less important. They say you can join the Witnesses right up until the great Tribulation begins. Like, the world’s falling apart, and some guy’s still at your door saying, ‘Want to join us?’ What’s the point of being in the Great Crowd if anyone can jump in at the last minute? It’s like waiting all day for a sale, then finding out everyone gets in anyway."
  "Really, what makes it special? The Great Crowd used to feel like a good second place—not in heaven, but still okay. Now it’s just, ‘Come whenever, we don’t care.’ It’s a total mess, and I’m here for it. But here’s the big question: if the 144,000 and the Great Crowd don’t mean much anymore, what happens to the Memorial talk?
  Now, If you’ve been to a Memorial—and good for you if you sat through it—you know it has two parts. Part one: Jesus dying for us. They explain how he saved everyone, paid the price, all that. That’s fine, it’s the main thing. But part two? That’s where they show off their ideas. It’s about the two groups—the 144,000 who eat the bread and drink the wine, and the Great Crowd who just watch. Like they’re too shy to join in. ‘No thanks, I’ll just look at the wine from here.’"
  "But now that the 144,000 isn’t a set number and the Great Crowd is open to anyone, what’s left to say? Will they admit, ‘Yeah, we made that up,’ and move on? Because if they don’t change it, it’ll sound weird. Imagine the speaker saying, ‘Uh, the 144,000 are still here… kind of… and the Great Crowd, well, anyone can join, so… great?’ It’s like selling a bike with no wheels—nobody’s buying it!"
  So the big question is, will they fix the Memorial talk? They should but judging from the past they won't do it immediately maybe gradually. But here is the point, the main appeal of the Memorial was in the past how they made people feeling special by dividing the Witnesses into two special groups, one gets heaven the other panda bear world.With that removed and the fact that unlike every other Christian on the planet refusing to partake from the emblems there is nothing special left, nothing special to distinguish them from Christendom.All wheels have fallen off the chariot , the appeal of the Memorial I think is forever lost.
  So they’ve got all these new idea to work with.This is their chance to look smart. Change the talk! Stop focusing on two groups and say something new—like how Jesus’ death helps everyone the same, no special ones, no leftovers, just one big team. That’d be exciting. That’d be different. That’d be… not the Watchtower.Will they do it i highly doubt it!
  Truth is, they don’t like big changes. They’ve been doing the same thing forever—guessing when the world ends, changing the dates, blaming everyone else when it’s wrong. I bet they’ll keep the talk the same. They’ll mumble through the old stuff, hoping people don’t notice it doesn’t make sense. ‘Don’t look too hard, okay?’ The Witnesses have been quiet and agreeing for years—taking every new rule like it’s no problem—so why would the leaders bother fixing it now?"
  
• 
  10

  Why GB Distorts the Story of Job

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/lpwusxk8ckc?si=d4nb1ciwccql8dox.

  a man, like new gb member jody jodele, dripping in wealth—$20,000 rolex, freemasonry ring, cushy life in upstate new york—pontificating about job’s suffering.

  it’s a fair jab to question how someone so detached from hardship might approach a story of utter loss.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  Journeyman, 💯

  Job's error that needed correcting was over-defending himself NOT "criticising" Jehovah.
• 
  10

  Why GB Distorts the Story of Job

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/lpwusxk8ckc?si=d4nb1ciwccql8dox.

  a man, like new gb member jody jodele, dripping in wealth—$20,000 rolex, freemasonry ring, cushy life in upstate new york—pontificating about job’s suffering.

  it’s a fair jab to question how someone so detached from hardship might approach a story of utter loss.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  Can I prove my great grandmother was a real person? No photographs no records ...therefore she is mythological. See how that works? In any case see below:

  The challenge here is that direct evidence for Job as an individual is sparse—unlike figures like King David or Hezekiah, who left tangible traces like the Tel Dan Stele or royal seals.

  First, the biblical text itself places Job in a patriarchal-like setting, reminiscent of the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—roughly 2000 BCE or earlier, based on traditional biblical chronology. Job’s wealth is measured in livestock (Job 1:3), he acts as his own priest (Job 1:5), and there’s no mention of the Mosaic Law or Israelite institutions, suggesting a pre-Exodus timeframe. The text also names Uz as his homeland (Job 1:1), which some link to a region in Edom or northern Arabia, areas inhabited during the early 2nd millennium BCE. This fits a broad Bronze Age context, but it’s circumstantial—Uz isn’t precisely mapped, and the lifestyle could span centuries.

  Archaeologically, there’s no smoking gun—no inscription saying “Job lived here” or a tomb with his name. This isn’t surprising, though. Most individuals from antiquity, especially non-rulers, left no physical trace. The absence of evidence doesn’t disprove Job’s existence; it just highlights the limits of what archaeology can confirm for a private figure from such an early period. However, the cultural backdrop of Job’s story—nomadic wealth, family-based religion—matches what we know of pastoral societies in the Middle East around 2000 BCE. Excavations at sites like Mari and Nuzi, dating to the early 2nd millennium BCE, reveal similar customs: patriarchal households, animal-based economies, and personal priestly roles. These parallels don’t prove Job was real, but they show his story fits a plausible historical setting.

  Historically, external texts offer some intriguing comparisons. The Sumerian tale *Ludlul bēl nēmeqi* (circa 1300 BCE), often dubbed the “Babylonian Job,” describes a righteous man suffering unjustly, pleading with his god, and eventually being restored. Found in cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia, it predates most estimates of when Job was written (scholars debate 1200–400 BCE for its composition). Another text, the *Dialogue Between a Man and His God* (circa 2000 BCE), also from Mesopotamia, echoes Job’s themes of suffering and divine questioning. These don’t mention Job by name, but they suggest his story reflects a real cultural phenomenon—people grappling with suffering in a way that transcends myth. Scholars like Samuel Noah Kramer have noted these parallels, arguing they root Job in a historical tradition of existential struggle, not just a fictional trope.

  The Bible itself provides internal evidence for Job’s historicity. Ezekiel 14:14 and 20 list Job alongside Noah and Daniel as righteous men, implying he was seen as a real figure by the prophet’s audience around 600 BCE. James 5:11 in the New Testament also treats Job’s endurance as factual. .
• 
  10

  Why GB Distorts the Story of Job

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/lpwusxk8ckc?si=d4nb1ciwccql8dox.

  a man, like new gb member jody jodele, dripping in wealth—$20,000 rolex, freemasonry ring, cushy life in upstate new york—pontificating about job’s suffering.

  it’s a fair jab to question how someone so detached from hardship might approach a story of utter loss.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  https://youtu.be/LpwUSXk8CKc?si=D4nb1CIWCCqL8doX

  A man, like new GB member Jody Jodele, dripping in wealth—$20,000 Rolex, Freemasonry ring, cushy life in upstate New York—pontificating about Job’s suffering. It’s a fair jab to question how someone so detached from hardship might approach a story of utter loss.

  For Job, the cultural and theological framework of his time likely pointed to a direct cause-and-effect relationship between righteousness and blessing, or sin and suffering. This is why his friends—Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar—are so insistent that he must have sinned to deserve such calamity (e.g., Job 4:7-8). Job, however, maintains his integrity, refusing to accept their logic (Job 27:5-6), yet he still assumes God is the sole orchestrator of his misery (Job 9:16-17). He can’t fathom an alternative explanation—like an adversarial figure like Satan—because that piece of the puzzle hasn’t been revealed to him or his contemporaries. The prologue (Job 1-2) shows us, the readers, Satan challenging Job’s righteousness and God permitting the test, but Job never gets that memo. His cries of “Why?” (Job 3:11-12, 10:18) reflect a man wrestling with a partial picture, unable to consider that his suffering might stem from a cosmic wager rather than divine punishment.

  This is precisely the narrative genius of Job: it pulls back the curtain for us, revealing Satan as the adversary, while Job himself remains a case study in faithfulness under ignorance. The book’s purpose isn’t just to showcase Job’s endurance but to introduce this unseen reality—Satan’s role as the accuser—setting the stage for later biblical theology.

  The idea that Jodele portrays God as a “nasty, vindictive, exacting” deity, akin to the “JW [Jehovah’s Witness] version” or the false comforters’ view, eagerly waiting to test Job or any righteous man, is one ,one can not ignore.

  In Job 1:6-12, Satan, not God, initiates the challenge. God’s response—“Have you considered my servant Job?”—isn’t a gleeful setup for a torture session but a recognition of Job’s existing faithfulness (Job 1:8). God isn’t itching to test someone; He’s responding to Satan’s accusation that Job’s righteousness is merely a byproduct of his prosperity (Job 1:9-10). God’s permission for the test (Job 1:12, 2:6) comes with limits—first sparing Job’s life, then his body (initially)—showing restraint, not relish. The idea that God “couldn’t wait until Moses” to test someone misreads the narrative’s flow. Job’s story isn’t about God’s impatience; it’s about Satan’s provocation meeting God’s confidence in Job’s integrity.
• 
  11

  King of the North / South predictions

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  during my jw.org lifetime since 1970 (2008 we faded out of it all) i read and heared a lot of the king of the north and the south.. but about an aliance between the two kings, that was not a jw.org scenario, wasn't it?.

  g..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  raymond frantz

  I don't believe that either king of the North or king of the South are the ones to worry about but a third king in Daniel 11:40 who is being attacked by both king of the North and king of the South, this king i believe is the Antichrist. If this is the case then an alignment between the king of the north and the king of the south is anticipated ,similar to the one we see today? But the verses are not that specific so I can not be dogmatic about any interpretation. Replace HIM with Antichrist below and the verse will make more sense:

  Daniel 11:40

  “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with HIM in a pushing, and against HIM the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and HE will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood.